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Original post dates between 8-3-2014 and 1-16-2015
Gathered below are bits and pieces about this bullet from various forum posts, grouped together for easy reading.
Overview
The purpose of this bullet is to be able to get better accuracy in older original .44' rifles with over-sized bores. My original Marlin 1889 slugs at .4335 and many other Marlins and Winchester 73' measure .433 and reports up to .436. ~Outpost75
"I see now that Tom at Accurate Molds has added 43-200QL, which has a larger lube groove for black powder application. I don't need it myself, because I'm standardizing on LSStuf Xlox and similar lubes, with smokeless powders, primarily Bullseye, but also RL7."
~Ed Harris
Accurate Mold's 43-200Q
"This is a heeled bullet which can be hand-started into the case without mouth expanding sized brass. It can also be hand-lubed, by wiping cup grease on the shank with the fingers, then the bullet seated against its stop surface by pushing the nose against a table edge. I carefully roll crimp using my regular Lee seater, NOT the factory crimp die, and the nose flange is cold-formed to match the die interior, forming a .435-.440" diameter driving band .060 wide above the crimp groove. When loaded in Starline brass neck diameter is .443". The cold-formed nose band does not impinge against the rifling, but seals the forcing cone in oversized or worn barrels. Rounds chamber and extract without marking from my Microgroove Marlin 1894S. I'm just letting people know this design is out there if you have a tight-necked chamber which otherwise precludes loading larger diameter bullets. This may be an option. 30wcf had promising initial results with it. I'm shooting some in my new rifle this week." ~Ed Harris
"The concept of the oversized nose flange is for the seater die to cold-form it as the case mouth is crimped, forming a narrow driving band conforming to the die interior.
Try hand seating one in an sized case without expanding, pushing it in until it stops, against a table edge and see if it it chambers in your rifle, and if the dummy de-bullets upon extraction.
Usually .44-40 chambers are long enough, there is enough clearance at the forcing cone angle that the bullet will enter with only light marking."
When roll crimped, the .448 or so flange is cold formed by the inside of the die and forms a forward driving band the same size as the inside of the die wall as can be seen here.
[roll crimping] Cautiously to avoid damaging cases! How well it works depends upon your die interior dimensions. My Lee seater is .432" above the roll crimping shoulder, which is a 45 degree Basic angle departing from a .446" major diameter. It works best with the softer alloys. I have been push-seating the wheelweight bullets without running them through the crimp die, the friction fit and stop surface being sufficient for the Marlin, but a snug fit in the case is a must to be able to extract loaded rounds without de-bulleting!!In a revolver you would need to crimp to prevent inertial dislodgement. ~Ed Harris
I will be loading more for the Marlin and oversized Winchester for further testing. Another option for seating this bullet is to back off the seating die a couple of turns, then adjust the seating stem down to seat the bullet to the correct depth. If one desires to reduce the nose to a custom diameter, the Lee FCD can be used. For the oversized Winchester, .437" is about right. ~John Kort
"Last week I tried them in my oversized '73 (.436" groove aft / .4335" groove (muzzle) and they worked pretty well pushed by 6.2 grs. / Titegroup. The groove sized nose diameter sealed the bore nicely and the rear .427" diameter was a snug fit in the .425" bore. As time permits, I'll try some with 4227 in the '73 ......
I now have some loaded for the Marlin and hope to get to the range later this week. I would like to test at 50 yards and 100, but, unfortunately, the rifle range is closed for updating for probably at least another month, so I will have to try them at 25 yards.
In addition to standard use, I see Ed's bullet design as another option for oversized barrels, even when the chamber is not large enough to accept a cartridge with a bullet of the proper diameter to fit the barrel." ~ John Kort
"Tom at Accurate Molds and I discussed this one a bit, and filling the worn or oversized bores, despite tight-necked chambers was the design intent. The Ruger .44-40 Vaquero was the original stimulus, but I decided against that purchase, having gotten the Marlin instead.
Initial trials with the 1894S with undersized .427 bullets which didn't fit, and which were too hard, were mostly to fire-form cases. The open sights which came on the gun had to be raised to the stop elevator step to zero at 100 yards, and the sight moved slightly to correct windage. Given my 66-year-old eyes, open sights, and imperfect ammunition, I considered the 1-1/2" groups at 25 yards acceptable for the circumstances. I expect to do better with 10 BHN alloy, 43-200Q with soft grease and about 6 grains of Bullseye to start with. I'll increase the Bullseye as accuracy indicates, but probably not exceed about 7 grs. Will also experiment in the range of 15-16 grs. of #2400. Next time.
FYI my Marlin 1894S slugs .430" groove and has 12-groove Microgroove rifling in 1:36" twist. The chamber neck accepts a .446" cartridge neck without resistance, which means I can load up to a .431" bullet in Starline brass. So, life is good! An XS ghost ring peep is on the way from Brownell's to replace the factory open semi-buckhorn rear, which will be saved for posterity, but not actual use." ~Ed Harris
Here is a photo of a loaded cartridge of which has yet to be cold formed. I chambered it into my 1889 Marlin made in 1892. I thought it chambered all the way in but when I closed the lever there was a slight resistance. This is why, it did meet the rifling just as it touched the driving band portion of the "to be cold formed" bullet. The "Lands" marks measure .4265 on the bullet. Even after the cold form, it touched. No problems in my other 44-40 rifles.
Bullet not cold formed, Dia still .443, later cold rolled to create a .440 driving band ~Bryan Austin
AOL 1.567, RP Brass
"43-200Q Range Report, 18 AUG 2014,
Bullets cast of wheelweights, tumble lubed Lee Liquid Alox, Starline cases, CCI 300 primers
Marlin 1894S, 20" Microgroove, ten-shot groups fired off sandbags with iron sights at 50 yards:
Powder charge, etc.
Five Consecutive TEN-Shot groups fired at FIFTY YARDS.
Smallest___Largest____AVERAGE
15.4 Old Herc. #2400,CVA flask, push-seat bullets UNSIZED:___________2.6________3.2_______2.86
7.2 grs. Bullseye, bullets sized .430, LFC die in crimp groove:_____1.5_______2.1______1.91 BEST TO DATE
Same as above, but bullets crimped in lube groove at 1.7" OAL:____2.0________2.8_______2.42"
~ Ed Harris
"Some brief shooting trials yesterday with 43-200Q, bracketing the charges with Bullseye, one rotor down at 6.5 and one rotor up at 7.8 grains Bullseye, using the RCBS Little Dandy Measure, and also 22.5 grains of RL7 using #26, the highest capacity rotor which comes with the Little Dandy. While they all shot "OK," they were not as good as the series I did earlier with 7.2 grains of Bullseye, which I am sticking to (1278 fps) as my basic recreational load.
I will use the 250-grain HP I use in my .44 Magnum for hunting, as it shoots well with the 22.5 grain RL7 charge at about 1300 fps.
I also tried using 7.8 grains of Red Dot, measured with the CVA black powder flask, using bullets cast from wheelweights, sized .430, fire-forming the last of my new Starline brass with CCI 300 primers.
SO now I have about 600 rounds of once-fired Starline brass to uniform primer pockets and flash holes, resize, etc.
7.8 grains of Red Dot with 43-200Q cast of wheelweights, sized .430 and lubed with Lee Liquid Alox turns out to be a very satisfactory load. Five consecutive 10-shot groups at 50 yards with iron sights averaging 2.16", with the smallest group 2.0" and the largest 2.4". Very consistent.
UPDATE 30AUG14 - Chronographed today 1248 fps, 13 Sd, 31 ES for 10-shot string.
I'm going to load a bunch more of these to use up some Red Dot I was given, and shoot more groups at different shorter and longer ranges. 200 yards is the longest I have ready access to, but will tell the tale.
This may be the Go-To load for the tong tool, because it shoots better and burns cleaner than the #2400 load of 15.4 grains metered with the same flask." ~John Kort
"RANGE REPORT 19 Sept, 2014.
Today I fired groups at 100 yards using up the remainder of test loads leftover from chronographing last time. Samples are all FOUR, ten-shot groups at 100 yards, shooting up the rest of each test box I had loaded, having shot the other ten rounds through the chronograph previously. ALL test loads here are 43-200Q, wheelweights, Lee Liquid Alox, sized .430, fire-forming new Starline brass, CCI 300 primers, groups all fired with iron sights, from my Marlin 1894S Microgroove:
Powder Charge_____Smallest_Largest__Average (inches)
8.3 Old Herc Red Dot _5.1_____5.7____5.47
17 Old Herc. #2400___4.3_____7.3____5.57
20 Old Dupont 4227___5.3_____5.8____5.68
These above are not my best loads. I need to reshoot 7.2 grains of Bullseye and 7.8 grains of Red Dot which both had averaged 2 inches for five, ten-shot groups fired at 50 yards in good conditions off a regular benchrest pedestal to see if dispersion is linear with range.
Here is my neighbor's range setup, as seen from the 100-yard bench. We can get 200 driving back a ways, and have another bench set in concrete there. Target is a 12" square SR1 repair center, reversed over an Army F silhouette, which gives a nice sight picture with the ghost ring and bead sight, you can just center the bead in the square. having enough black around the bead for good target definition. Compression using my phone camera in telephoto mode makes the backstop appear closer than it really is. ~Ed Harris
"Today I fired some of my 43-200Q loads from bullets cast of 1:30 alloy with 7.2 grains of Bullseye at 100 yards.
This time I put a 6X scope on the rifle so that I could see how well the load shot, rather than how well this Old Man could shoot it.
I'm pleased with the results. Ten shots measured 3.2" from the high shot in the black to the lowest one:" ~Ed Harris
"Shot a bunch of other odds and ends of stuff today which "didn't work".
Seems that my best two charges are either 7.2 grains of Bullseye or 24.5 of RL7, and both shoot well 200Q or 230G bullets which "fit".
Either "old" Hercules or "new"Alliant Bullseye work great using the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #13. Old Bullseye gives about 60 fps lower velocity than new, but shoots very well.
"Old" Hercules Red Dot, throwing a nominal 7.8 grains using the CVA plastic blackpowder Titan flask with 20-grain 3Fg tube shoots nearly as well. The 15.4 grain charge of Aliant #2400 thrown by the same blackpowder flask, is "acceptable", but not one of my best loads. As FYI the equivalent Little Dandy rotor for that volume of powder the #19, if anyone wants to try the loads.
The largest Little Dandy rotor #26 meters 22.5 grains of RL7 which is a good load, but requires a wad for complete combustion. I got more complete powder combustion, without a wad, and slightly higher velocity using 24.5 grains. So, I "adjusted" a duplicate #26 rotor in the drill press to meter that amount, which fills fireformed and resized Starline brass just above the shoulder to the base of the neck if just "dumped in" from the measure without any effort at settling. THAT is my best load with the 230G bullet.
The lighter 200Q bullet also shoots well with RL7, but overall seems to favor the Bullseye. I'm settling on the 200Q with Bullseye for recreational use and the 230G with RL7 for hunting. The slightly different bullet profiles make it easy to tell the two loads apart. Now to see how they hold up at 200 yards.
Again as FYI, trying up and down the scale with 4227 and #2400 wouldn't shoot under 4" at 100 with either bullet.
So, I'm done with smokeless load development.
I do want to try both loads at 200 yards to see what their drop is and how well they group.
I may benchmark some black and Pyrodex for group and velocity in the Microgroove Marlin vs. the Ruger Vaquero just for giggles." ~Ed Harris
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