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Just a reminder to those reading this, duplex loading is beneficial in older rifles having pitted bores where with a straight b.p. charge, fouling will build up pretty quickly in the barrel recesses and accuracy will go downhill rather quickly. NOT JUST ANY SMOKELESS POWDER CAN BE USED!!!
HISTORY of the 44-40 Duplex Load
HISTORY of the 44-40 Duplex Load
by Jim Martin
Centerfire pistol-size cartridges loaded with "Lesmok" powder were first mentioned as available in W.R.A.Co.'s catalog No.77 (October 1911), and were last mentioned as available in No.80 (1916). During those years, centerfire pistol-size cartridges were simultaneously catalogued loaded with Black Powder, "Lesmok" Powder, and Smokeless Powder.
It was in 1911 that rimfire cartridges were also first available. After 1916 the rimfires continued to be available, but only in .22 caliber. I don't have all the catalogs after 1920, but the 1932 edition still carries "Lesmok" .22 Long Rifle cartridges, while 1938 is silent.
For those who do not know, "Lesmok" was a blend of Smokeless and Black Powder intended to give less fouling than B.P., while maintaining somewhat lower pressures at standard velocities compared to Smokeless. Available cartridges were priced the same as those loaded with B.P.
by Shasta » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:12 pm
I am considering testing .44-40 caliber duplex loads of Fg, FFg, FFFg using a 10% IMR 4759 priming charge in my 1873 rifles, the purpose being to reduce black powder fouling during 15 shot silhouette relays. One rifle is an original Winchester from 1880, the other a Uberti reproduction.
My attempts at internet searching the subject seem to veer off to the .45-70 caliber, which I have duplexed in the past with very good results. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, as it were, so was wondering if anyone here on the Leverguns forum, (I'm especially thinking of the esteemed and highly experienced .44-40 expert Mr. John Kort) might have already done this and could share their experiences?
SHASTA
by w30wcf » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:12 am
Shasta,
While I partially agree with the pards, I have run some duplex cartridges through my original '73 (1882) with no issues.
That was about 10 years ago and my reason for doing so was that the barrel which is far from perfect, would foul quickly and accuracy would go out of the window in short order.
Lyman had published some data including pressure in their Cast Bullet Handbook on duplex loads in the 45-70. Interestingly with a 322 gr bullet, the pressure between 70 / of Goex FFG and a 63 Goex FFG / 7 grs 4759 was pretty much identical (14,700 vs 14,900). With a 400 gr bullet the same loads produced 16,400 & 18,700 respectively.
Based on that....since the 44-40 has a lighter bullet and charge my feeling that a duplex of 4/4759 under 30 / Goex FFG Should be plenty safe. I decided on the lesser charge of 30 grs instead of 36 grs because I reasoned that since 16 grs of 4759 = the velocity of 40 grs of FFG then 1 gr. of 4759 was ballistically = to 2.5 grs of b.p. Therefore, 4 grs of 4759 was = to 10 grs of black. Thus 40-10= 30 grs b.p. + 4 grs. 4759.
Anyway, it worked well and I could shoot many rounds without the lest than perfect barrel fouling out.
HOWEVER, If I were to do it today in my vintage '73, I would use RL7 instead of 4759. The reason being is that a capacity load of RL7 has been tested by Hercules Powder (now Alliant) in the .44-40 and generated pressures well within the SAAMI MAP for the .44-40 and that was with a heavier 240 gr bullet. So....technically one could use any amount of RL7 and fill the rest of the capacity with b.p. and not exceed b.p. pressures.
I have since found that better b.p.'s like Swiss and lately Olde Enysford work much better than Goex to keep things running well for many rounds (100+ using the standard 2 groove bullet) in a smooth barrel. In the vintage '73 with the less than perfect barrel, the additional lube of the Accurate 43-215C in combination with the less fouling properties of those two powders will allow that rifle to shoot accurately for many rounds.
w30wcf
by Shasta » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:17 am
Thank you for your replies, gentlemen, you've given me plenty to think about.
Like Mr. Kort, one of my main reasons for pursuing a duplex load is the rather rough bore on my original 1873. It is a 28" barrel that fouls very quickly, even when using my deep grooved Accurate bullets (black powder lube, of course). It requires a great deal of scrubbing to get it clean after firing just fifteen or twenty rounds. It shoots very well with a charge of Reloader 7, but I would enjoy using black powder if I could just make it a little less troublesome.
My experience duplexing a Sharps .45-70 some years ago was extremely positive. The barrel stayed clean much longer, and the brass was much easier to clean also. I did not keep it up for long because duplex loads were not allowed for BPCR silhouette competition. There is no such restriction for the Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette disciplines, and so it has been on my mind lately.
I think I will start by trying some of the newer and supposedly better black powders before attempting to duplex.
SHASTA
by w30wcf » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:55 am
Shasta wrote:
Thank you for your replies, gentlemen, you've given me plenty to think about.
Like Mr. Kort, one of my main reasons for pursuing a duplex load is the rather rough bore on my original 1873. It is a 28" barrel that fouls very quickly, even when using my deep grooved Accurate bullets (black powder lube, of course). It requires a great deal of scrubbing to get it clean after firing just fifteen or twenty rounds. It shoots very well with a charge of Reloader 7, but I would enjoy using black powder if I could just make it a little less troublesome.
My experience duplexing a Sharps .45-70 some years ago was extremely positive. The barrel stayed clean much longer, and the brass was much easier to clean also. I did not keep it up for long because duplex loads were not allowed for BPCR silhouette competition. There is no such restriction for the Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette disciplines, and so it has been on my mind lately.
I think I will start by trying some of the newer and supposedly better black powders before attempting to duplex.
SHASTA
Howdy Shasta,
I am sure that if you try Swiss or Olde Enysford you will definitely see a difference as compared to standard Goex.
In my '73 with it's somewhat rough barrel using the standard 2 lube groove bullet (427098) lubed with SPG ...
Goex FFG - group started opening up by the 7th shot and by the 10th shot the bullets were starting to partially keyhole
Swiss FFG - good accuracy maintained for about 18 shots then the group started to open up, Bullet: Accurate 43-215C
Swiss FFG - good accuracy maintained for 30 rounds (most tried at 1 time)
By comparison in the smooth barrel on my Marlin Cowboy 44-40 .....
427098 / Goex FFG - groups start to open after a dozen rounds
43-215C / Goex FFG - accuracy maintained for many many rounds (50+)
427098 / Swiss FFG - accuracy maintained for many many rounds (50+)
recent testing with Olde Enysford gave results similar to Swiss.
w30wcf
by Shasta » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:40 am
w30wcf wrote:
Shasta,
I was wondering if you ever tried a duplex loading and if so, what the results were.
w30wcf
John,
Thanks for asking, and yes, I did do some duplex load testing shortly after posting this thread about a year ago. Despite all the dire warnings of some, I and both my rifles survived. I did not report on my activities as I got the feeling that most here did not think it wise to be messing with duplexing.
The loads I tested in both rifles consisted of an approximately 210 gr. Accurate Molds 433205C bullet over 4.0 grains of Reloder 7 topped by 30.0 grains by weight of some old G.O.I. FFg with a single milk carton wad under the bullet. Gearhart Owens Industries (GOI) was a predecessor of Goex that went out of business back in the early eighties, but I have a whole keg of it that I need to use up.
I shoot my five shot groups at 50 yards because that works well with my sheet paper size targets. Much further and the front bead covers the entire paper. Velocities measured over my Ohler 35P chronograph were not much different than straight black, with my original Winchester 28" averaging 1,203 fps and the Navy Arms replica 24" averaging 1,198 fps.
I tried both smokeless lube (White Label BAC) and my homemade Paul Matthews formula black power lube (beeswax, Neatsfoot Oil, Neutrogena Facial Soap). The smokeless lube caused hard fouling, while the BP lube kept fouling moist and soft. I compared Federal Large Pistol Magnum and Standard primers. The standard seemed to do the best. All the duplex loads tended to leave some granules of smokeless powder residue in the bore, but the black powder fouling was definitely much less, and for some reason had a lighter color.
Most groups were nothing to brag on, running upwards of 3 inches, but I did get several in the range of one and a half to two inches, which was pretty good for my eyes and iron sights. (I have since had cataract surgery and can see better now). Both rifles performed nearly identically.
I really should do some more work on this, but many other interests intervene. I also discovered that Olde Eynsford black powder burns moist with much less fouling than regular Goex in the old Winchester, and I need to test that some more too. Might save the trouble of duplexing.
NOTE: Test #93 - Duplex Load, a 215gr Accurate 43-214A over 6.6gr of Reloder 7, topped by 25gr Black Powder, 1,207fps @ 7,621psi/9,008cup
Shasta,
Thank you for the report. Glad to see that you had some success. Just a reminder to those reading this, duplex loading is beneficial in older rifles having pitted bores where with a straight b.p. charge, fouling will build up pretty quickly in the barrel recesses and accuracy will go downhill rather quickly. NOT JUST ANY SMOKELESS POWDER CAN BE USED!!!
One thing that most folks don't realize is that the early Semi-Smokeless powder (King's) contained 20% of smokeless in its formulation which also included the other components of b.p. It was said that it produced velocities of up to 10% greater than straight b.p. and the pressures had been recorded as being the same as b.p. It was for use in all b.p. rifles / cartridges and was to be loaded just like b.p.
I have had the opportunity to test some vintage PETERS Semi-Smokeless 44-40 cartridges and they indeed produced velocities of 1,430 f.p.s. avg. which is almost spot on to the 10% improvement claim. Lesmok was the DuPont version of Semi-Smokeless powder.
That being said, late last year I tested up to 20% by weight of RL7 under the b.p. charge. At this point I would like to remind the reader that a capacity load of RL-7 was tested by Hercules under a heavier 240 gr bullet and it produced pressures that were 10% under SAMMI MAP for the .44-40. That means that any amount of RL-7 under a b.p. charge is plenty safe. DO NOT SUSTITUTE ANY OTHER POWDER!!
A combination of 20% RL-7 and Goex FFG produced 1,316 f.p.s. average in a 24" barrel. Accuracy was very good.
Shasta,
I can't recall what the groove diameters of your rifles are and the diameter of the bullet you are using and the alloy(?).
I am thinking that a .06" thick poly disc under the bullet just might improve accuracy since it would act as a gas check,
helping keep the gas behind the bullet as it transverses the bore.
I recently underwent cataract surgery as well. Much improvement as you said with being able to see the sights much better!
Sadly, I read that Paul Matthews had passed on in 2015.
w30wcf
Reloder 7 is one of my favorite powders. My standard smokeless .44-40 load uses 25.0 grains Reloder 7 with a large pistol primer and the 210 grain Accurate 433205C bullet. Velocity is right at 1,405 fps.
For those who may be interested in reading or re-reading more about my experiences loading for and shooting my 1880 vintage Winchester, here is a link to an old thread from 2012:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=40797
Shasta
Read all the replies here: https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=62144
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